The Points Guy's Travel Hacking Tips to Fly for FREE in 2025

are you traveling for free or are you leaving money on the table in today's episode we're joined by Brian Kelly the Points Guy the ultimate Authority on point hacking to make sure you are traveling for $0 this year let's find out if you're missing out and just for fun I was on a plane the other day I saw the Points Guy right there on the side of the plane I was so excited hello hello hello and welcome to the Bigger Pockets money podcast my name is Minnie Jensen and with me as always is my finally starting to earn credit cards rewards points co-host Scott trench thanks Mandy I'm really looking forward to redeeming myself with this podcast here Bigger Pockets has a goal creating 1 million millionaires you're in the right place if you want to get your financial house in order because we truly believe Financial Freedom is attainable for everyone no matter when or where you're starting or how bad you've been with credit card Point usage like me with 600 I think it's 750,000 to a million points that have gone unused for 10 years despite doing this for a living all right with that Brian the Points Guy we are super excited to have you on bigger gets money today can you teach us and me a little bit about this subject today well first of all this is now an intervention CU you're what I call a points hoarder so this is a uh alert to everyone who who does like you you should use your points it is financial malpractice to hoard points because they lose value over time but that's a more advanced topic but no I'm super excited to share today everyone should be playing the points game even if you don't want to travel uh the industry has evolved so much it's Ultra lucrative so if you're not paying attention to points hear me clearly you are throwing cash in a trash can so hopefully this episode will help you get on the right track what's better place to start Brian should we start with if you have a massed a bunch of points because you signed up for one of these things 10 years ago after talking to some you know Superstar expert on travel rewards and you never did anything with them how do you begin using them or should we start with what's a baseline strategy for someone starting from zero which is probably more common yeah I mean well let's hook people in because I bet a lot of your listeners have a lot of points and and the answer is really easy so over the last four years there have has been a proliferation of technology these uh paid tools which will actually tell you exactly how to use your points yourself so I highly recommend there's a app called Point me point.

Me it's basically like the Google flights for points you can tell it what points you have you can put in where you want to go and it'll tell you how to use the points you have to get there um so simply put you no longer have to go to 20 different airlin websites and be an expert like me to get the most bang for your point there's another tool called seats. arrow that will actually scan Airline programs for up to a year and to get the most value out of your points these days it's being flexible and choosing to fly when the best seats are available so seats. Arrow will let you look at a year by Airline and you can sort by the cheapest tickets or by route and you know plan your vacation around when the best availability is you said you can figure out where you want it to take you where you want to go you I'm paraphrasing here um what do you mean that literally or figuratively like should this be used on travel um almost always is that the the general guidance yeah and I guess the general guidance is if you have transferable points like AMX membership rewards Chase Ultimate Rewards and you have a credit card that certain credit cards uh will allow you to transfer points to Partners and generally that is where you're going to get the most value most people don't realize that and when they go on uh and just search to redeem for any flight the credit card compan is going to give you like one to one and a half cents per point but when you learn how to transfer to Airlines I'll just give an example you know like 50,000 chase points is about a $500 gift card to wherever you want depending on your credit card it might be $625 towards booking so you might be able to fly coach to Europe but you could transfer those 50,000 points to Air France and fly business class to Europe so that's where the real V that's when I hope I get people's interests perked up especially if you like flying in the front of the playing transferring your points is where that's where the excitement comes in because it's not pegged to the cost of the ticket and in a perverse way the more expensive the ticket is when you can get those points tickets that's sort of expert mode and that's why the people in this industry hate when I teach other people how to do it because it it makes it harder for them but hey that's my job yeah it just seems like vacation is so much better when it's not being paid for with cash let the Airlines and credit card companies pay for your trip so that you can at least your your flights and hotels and you can spend the money on things that you love the most and you know and that's why like points are a financial tool they are currency and they're not taxable so you can get Banks to give you free points that you will not be taxed on you can be smart about how you spend your money and what I love about credit as I'm sure you've talked about many times on the show is when you actually pay your bills off in full every month your credit score goes up so winning at points is like winning at life because not only can you get the credit card companies and the airlines to fund your trips but your credit score goes up as long as you're playing by the rules like paying your bills off in full every month to avoid High interest if you are going to you know have huge credit card bills I do not recommend playing the points game you may want to get a you know 0% balance transfer card but but yeah it's all about the points so is it as simple as if there's one takeaway from this if you have a ton of points go to point.

Me and start poking around and the answers for how to travel using those points most effectively will present themselves or what else exactly yeah so I mean well point.

me is just one and if you have an American Express card if you go to point. me/ AMX the tool is free and you can you'll put in you know New York to Miami or New York to LA whatever wherever you live and it'll show you in real-time availability hey if you book this through the airline it's going to cost you 500 bucks 50,000 points but here's how you transfer for 20,000 so it does all of the math and it searches all of the different options for you so that's why you know having this technology now can make anyone off the street become an expert almost immediately so so you're not in the first world position of having hundreds of thousands of points that you should have used years ago because they've lost value to inflation it's been terrible investment relatively speaking U for this and you got to get in your game with that but you're starting over from scratch or you're trying to advance your game what is what are some how do we kind of basically frame the opportunity with credit card points for someone getting into it and and then finding ways to travel for free yeah there's three main flavors of rewards cards number one is cash back pretty simple you spend you know you're generally going to get anywhere from one to 2% cash back if you're going to get a cash back card today City double cash is sort of like the standard 2% back no annual fee as long as you pay your bill so you want to look for like 2% back that's like pretty good you can get a little bit higher than that with some specialty cards like if you have a brokerage account with Bank of America Etc the second is the the co-brand cards that's Airline cards Hotel cards they offer the currency you get is that Airline so uh the real value in these cards though is Perks free check bags priority boarding lounge access Elite status the third and best type of credit card in my opinion and I think most points experts are the transferable points credit card so these are the bank currencies you don't earn with United Airlines you earn Chase Ultimate Rewards points and the transferable points current currencies are amazing because instead of earning One Singular Airline mile you can earn one or more credit card points that can be transferred to 30 Airlines so you dramatically increase the utility of your points by having a ton more options because the downside of getting just Airline or hotel points is you know if you're acre American Airlines miles on their co-brand but say you want to go on your honeymoon to Dubai and your life you know you want to fly Emirates you can't once you have an American Airline you can't transfer out they're untransferable you you you are in bed with that Airline and a lot of the airlines have been naughty and continuing to devalue their program so when you have it with the bank it's a much more valuable currency the tradeoff is that you don't get as many perks with that Airline you're not going to get free check bags with a bank credit card so everything is just a calculation the real goal is you want to get big signup bonuses for a new credit card and you want to get credit cards that offer C bonuses so that's on everyday spend the AMX gold card for example offers four points per dollar spend on dining and groceries which are huge categories for most people the built credit card is a transferable card that gives you points on rent with no fees so if you are a renter you there is no reason not to get the built Rewards Card even if your landlord takes a check you can pay with your buil credit card they get their direct deposit deposit or check and you earn points for free with no annual fee does the bill card if you recommend the built card to your tenants do you get like a little spiff as a landlord I think they have a program especially like with the big big buildings I mean the big residential companies are investors in the company so I'm sure that there's a that's how they're getting all their new credit card members but even if your landlord is just like a small landlord that you send a check to you can still have them send a check or direct deposit and earn the points so most people are like well built seems too good to be true it's not it's and the points are extraordinarily valuable you can transfer them to United Hyatt there at the Points Guy we rank all the points currencies out there and built points and chase points are the most valuable and that's a no annual fee card so the goal is to look at every dollar you spend your rents which is most people's biggest monthly purchase you want to be getting points for that and not paying anything your dining your Ubers your travel you know the Chase Sapphire reserves another great one triple points on travel and dining but travel and includes Uber public transportation parking tolls Etc so the goal is you want a big signup bonus and then you want to get a card or two that reward you bonuses where you spend the most money we have to take a quick ad break but while we are away dear listeners if you're not already doing so please follow us on Instagram and Facebook on both platforms we are Bigger Pockets money all one word all right let's jump back in with the Points Guy why would you say Chase is even more valuable than AMX for example for their points because you rank at the top and by the way I'm lucky I have the 72923 Chase Ultimate Rewards points took me 12 years of spending um of on that across rental properties and personal um to rack up all of those they're very valuable those 700,000 points uh if you have a Chase Sapphire Reserve card you could redeem those for over $10,000 in in travel and I could teach you how to get even more value than that you could probably get $20,000 worth when you start transferring to book business and first class flights through their Partners like Air France Air Canada that's a lot of great trips you could fly numerous times roundtrip business class you know to Europe to Asia you've got a lot of possibilities there now just to answer your question chase points are more valuable because if you have the sapphire Reserve they give you one and a half cents per Point base level on all travel basically whether you book hotels or flights through them AMX is only one cent so chase points are more valuable because their base Redemption level and then also uh is just more valuable you know builts at 1.25 so there's like base levels of redemption and then you can transfer them to Partners and get many more you know 5 cents per point in value potentially I gota say like like maybe 10 years ago uh seven 10 years ago I heard that the Chase Sapphire Preferred Card was just like a great all-arounder credit card if you weren't sure what to do um at that point I don't know if that's if that's currently case but I've just used that which is how they got me of course the credit card company should should I change over the Chase Sapphire Preferred Card has a lower annual fee than the Chase Sapphire Reserve card but because I have so many points if I plan to redeem them should I upgrade to that card so the chase Stu I prefer today you only get 1.25 cents per point that base level but if you had a reserve card it would be one and a half so you can still transfer the points either card and I think you'll get more value transferring to high it and to the airlines but off the bat you would be getting um you know thousands more in value by having a reserve if you redeemed it for travel through Chase now here's the trick and this is what people need to know so if it's been more than four years since you've had a sapphire signup bonus you'd actually be eligible to get the Sapphire Reserve card as a new card and get the 60,000 Point signup bonus but there's a trick to it what you need to do is downgrade your Sapphire preferred to a Chase Freedom unlimited card that's going to be a no annual fee card with one and a half points on every dollar spent and then you apply new for Chase Sapphire Reserve get the 60,000 points and then all of your points become Sapphire Reserve points so there's like Nuance if you were to call Chase today they would let you upgrade but give you zero points but knowing the trick of because you can't apply for a reserve if you have a preferred but you can downgrade preferred to a freedom which is a sep separate product and then apply fresh to get that 60,000 points which are worth $900 um just right there by applying new versus upgrading that's super valuable on an unrelated note Mindy I'm going to need you to ask the next 10 minutes worth of questions here well you call up Chase sure well I have a lot of questions a bunch that we have kind of touched on but not really touched on Brian you just said that uh this one has a lower annual fee or Scott did how do you evaluate annual fees for cards because some of them are quite eye openening if you haven't been involved in this before I got one card that was like it's a $600 annual fee wow instantly I would say no but then if you dive a little deeper you see that you get $300 instant credit on travel and you know all these other things how do you evaluate the annual fee in my book how to win a travel I have a whole chapter about you need to evaluate the three sides of the coin are the earning of points generally cards with higher Annual fees offer richer rates of return on the card so what you want to do is a quick valuation of okay so for example the chase saire Reserve has that $550 annual fee but you're earning 3x points on all travel and dining versus two and that might seem nominal to you but you spend 10,000 a year on travel and dining it's 20,000 points versus 30 those extra 10,000 chase points um are worth 15 $50 right there in difference so then when you add that 150 you'll earn more in points just from that one group of spend plus the $300 you get a year in travel rebates you're now at $450 in value from getting that 550 card so the the sapphire preferred is $95 so you've closed the Gap right there off the bat plus that Sapphire Reserve gets you into the stunningly beautiful Chase Sapphire lounges that are now expanding across the country so that's what I want people to do the math is how much more in points will you earn or how much more are those points more valuable when you redeem because Sapphire Reserve is one and a.

Half cents versus one and a quarter and that starts to add up very quickly and then the third side of the coin is Perks so by having a sapphire Reserve card you actually get a ton of different perks like that lounge access which if you live in Boston Laria you know wherever there are these Sapphire lounges you might be using them once a month and getting a $50 meal that you would have had to buy in the airport so then you start adding in all the perks and the Really premium credit cards they have so many perks people don't realize like purchase protection you know when you have one of those premium credit cards something goes wrong with a credit you know an issue the the teams are much more enabled to handle disputes um they'll take charges off your credit card or even flight delays in cancellations this is a perk most people don't know about but when you book the flights with your credit card a sapphire Reserve for example if your flight's delayed and you need to spend a night in the hotel you're going to spend an hour in line trying to get a Motel 6 from the airline they may or may not give it to you anyone with the chase up fire reserve knows oh I booked this with my Reserve Chase will reimburse $500 per person on your reservation in reasonable fees so you can book yourself in a beautiful suite at the Weston at the airport and know that your credit card company's going to reimburse you the airlines these days are really cheap so the credit card companies now have all these like perks that make that 550 all of a sudden that's a no-brainer when you know you're protected you can go to the lounge you're getting more points you're redeeming more points and so frankly cheap is expensive people are losing sight over you know the value they could be getting the piece that I can redeem my points for what is that 15% more a buck 50 instead of a buck 25 um on there that that is that t takes the value of my points which you said we're somewhere in the ballpark of $10,000 if I'm reasonably intelligent about it um to150 so at least in the year I plan to redeem a bunch of points the Chase Sapphire Reserve makes a lot of sense just for that alone before you get to the other benefits you talked about absolutely you would make up the annual fee difference for several years just right there just in how much more valuable they make the points this is not me I'm learning this on the spot I I did not know this beforehand we don't have any Financial affiliation with Chase or any of these things this just happens to be my situation I if why anyone listening I want to know what Brian's wallet looks like right now Brian what's in your wallet I don't remember who what ad that is yeah that's Capital One I think and funny enough so my goal in life is to earn more than one point per dollar on every purchase so I actually have the Capital One Venture x uh is a competitor to the Chase Sapphire reserve it but you earn 2x on everything so that's the card I use when I'm at the vet you know there's no credit card out there that gives 4X points on vets or you know even online shopping um you know I pay a contractor to do something in my house go shop at a store that goes on the 2x so everything I earn minimum 2x uh I have the built credit card I do pay rent um and that gets me up to 100,000 points a year just on paying rent which I had to do anyway um and then MX gold so the a lot of people get the MX Platinum which is good for lounge access and perks but you only earn one point per dollar on most purchases it's 5x on airfare so I will put my airfare on an AMX Platinum for 5x but the AMX gold card you get 4X on dining and groceries and I've got two kids so groceries includes instacart and grocery shopping so I want people to look at all the major C categories in which they spend money there certain credit cards for pharmacies streaming you know cell phone and as a small business owner I do a lot of Google advertising Google Facebook advertising so for anyone out there who who does that the AMX business gold gives four points per dollar on Internet advertising which I know a lot of small businesses that spend a lot because you you know my company reimburses me for that spend so and it's up to $150,000 a year so I get 600,000 valuable AMX points for using that business gold card so also small business credit cards are a huge way to unlock even more points okay you are now touching on the reason that I have a Capital One Venture X and A Hyatt card and a Southwest card and that's it because I can't keep track of all of this and I'm so thankful because Denver is my home airport and the Capital One Venture X Card allows you into that lounge and there's another one in a different Concourse but it's a really great Lounge so um for that I would say if anybody's listening and you know if you travel a lot or even if you just travel a little bit find out what Lounge is in your area and use that because not all cards are the same I have a venture X which I guess is like the the highest level of Capital One Venture whatevers and there's other Venture levels I will jump the line to get into the lounge because I have a quote unquote better card and I feel kind of bad about that except my kids are sitting there and they're hungry and they're like can we please just get in the lounge and I'm like oh we just jumped in front of everybody but I feel you know I still feel a little bit bad yeah the normal Venture Card I think is $95 but the Venture X is $3.

95 but it comes with a $300 credit so you're there's really no reason not to get the Venture X in my opinion even if you visit one Lounge a year um plus all the other perks are so much higher I think for you if you like flying if you like you Hyatt in Southwest points I would recommend to you to get a Sapphire card because you could be earning 3x on travel and dining and you can transfer one to one to Southwest and Hyatt so it wouldn't make sense for you to use a high unless you're trying to get Hiatt status or Southwest Airline status cuz you'd want get chase points instead so you can transfer to either of those plus 10 other really valuable Partners but that also I think synergizes really well if you can pick a favorite Airline and a favorite Hotel chain yes you want to take that trip to Dubai or whatever and use an airl but that's not probably most people are are going to be fairly cons are going to get the maximum benefit I think from using something like chase that is universally applicable and one of these big hotel chains or Airlines do you have a recommendation for where to start if you if you don't really know and you're not really kind of new to figuring that out about how to what some good choices you won't regret yeah like if if you fly Delta for example I would say instead of you can get a Delta credit card that gives you free check bags all the perks right the the the the airline cards are good just for perks but don't spend all your money on them because you don't want to get one Delta mile when you could have had one AMX point because an AMX Point transfers to Delta plus 30 other options so by choosing to acrew one piece when you could have a much more valuable Point that's where people go wrong they say I I fly Delta I'm going to get a Delta card well you can fly Delta it's great Airline but get more valuable points and a points currency that transfers to Delta plus a million other options I'd also say you could have a saire reserve and still fly Delta because you know if you have a Chase sappire Reserve those points you can redeem on buying any Delta flight in the world for one and a half cents a piece in general Delta miles are worth about one cent a piece so even if you want redeem for Delta flights you could still use your Sapphire points of which you're getting three on travel and dining and let's do the math there at three points per dollar on travel and dining and they're worth one and a half uh cents each you're getting a 4.5% return per do dollar spent in those categories towards Delta whereas if you got one Delta mile that's worth one cent each you're getting 1% by spending on a Delta Co brand so you could get almost 5x more value by spending on a Chase Sapphire and then redeeming on Delta than if you got one Delta mile you're on your path to Fire and you're keeping your expenses low what credit card is best for you if you don't have high spending and don't want to Shell out a thousand plus on three ultimate credit cards we'll find out when we're back thanks for sticking with us let me ask a more advanced layer question to this because if I have a favorite Airline and I fly there a lot and I get status that synergizes in like if like for Bigger Pockets right like and probably many people listening you know you travel for work maybe it's three times a year maybe it's five times a year for me it's 10 to 20 times a year on that right so my point like something that synergizes with Southwest is much more valuable and I imagine that if I pick one hotel chain which I've not been super good about that that will also start to begin synergizing so how do I make that decision about like hey if I'm gonna I'm going to travel for work I should always go with this hotel chain or this this Airline because it will give me the most flexibility or most optionality later is there do you have any advice for somebody that's kind of thinking through how do I reset that 2025 in general Elite status let me just tell you when I started the Points Guy in 2010 in general Delta was upgrading 80% of the first class cabin was free Elite upgrades it was crazy even if you had low mid-tier status you're getting free upgrades so I would do whatever it took to get status because I could calculate well flying first class for free was a huge value fast forward 15 years in 2025 Airlines now people pay 80% of those first class cabins paid off the bat so only 20% are going to those up upes which means you're really only getting upgraded if you're a top tier passenger what I tell people is that yeah if you're an old top tier passenger and you're getting great customer service and you're getting real tangible perks like getting rebooked when there's a storm and you're the last one you know you get that one spot left to go home and you see that value all the time what's been happening is people who have like mid-tier status are not seeing those perks anymore so you're being sold to promise of goods and now the the airlines are now saying saying well you have to spend all your money on our co-brand to get the status my push to everyone is look hard and deep and say how much did that status get me in real value this past year if it's you're still getting upgrades and they're treating you like a king by all means it might make sense to forego getting the more valuable points to get the perks that come with status and spending for it but in many cases now people are realizing I'm on this hamster wheel to get Elite status what am I getting I could just the airline co-branded card which gets me Priority boarding free check bags and the airlines now you know I'm not going to get the upgrade anyway so that's what I want people and in the book I go through the how to assess where to spend your money because you can fly on an airline but just make sure that loyalty goes both ways that if you're going to give them all your spend on all your credit cards you better be getting more value than the points that you're losing by not spending on a better card so you're you know I want people to understand the tradeoff that they make by spending on an airline C even at the next level but that's an awesome answer you're saying you're saying don't be loyal to Southwest or t United unless you're really going to be flying dozen plus times a year or more on that Airline because you're not going to get the benefits anymore of doing that just shop around the best price and use the best transfer on that and rack up all the points in these these these categories and and and figure out how to use best maybe get that one Airline credit card and can spend the minimum and people are blown up I want to empower people to earn so many points that instead of flying blindly loyal let's say with Delta and then praying and hoping for an upgrade biting your teeth maybe it happens maybe it doesn't you're on an upgrade weight List have so many points that you book the first class flight with your points and that's what people don't realize they can do that's the eye- openening moment I like wait a minute why was I chasing status to maybe get a freebie when I could have just spent on really rich credit cards and booked whatever the heck I wanted and taken all the stress out of it that sounds a lot more interesting than trying to jump through hoop after hoop because the airlines keep changing these programs and usually you know the spread of the value has been diminishing for a majority of elite Travelers I know there's an article in the Wall Street Journal today about you know people are now becoming more loyal to their credit cards than they are to their Airlines and myself is that's 100% the case Okay so going back to your big wallet what's in your wallet how do you keep this all so how do you keep track of this one is for groceries and this one is for gasoline and this one is for you know travel it's confusing and I would tell people just get a couple cards that you know for example the AMX gold I keep going back to that dining and grocery which is what you know a lot of people spend on just know that you always use that card for that um you know have and then everything else you should be spending on your your Venture X card in my opinion because you're getting unless you really need High it points you know then I would also just say well if you're really looking to get higher points you're get get your account to a level where you can spend a week in Maui then then you might want to work to that otherwise when you look at the math you know a high at point is worth one and a half cents a Southwest point is like 1.2 your Chase or your Capital One points are worth one but you're earning two for every purchase you're getting two cents in value minimum back so you would never want to earn one Southwest point because it's way less than one Capital One Point you never want to even get one high at point because with your with your Capital One points you can just book high at hotels and pay for that um you can't transfer to high but you could just pay for it but in general that 2% back's very very rich it's you know unless you have a you know you're trying to spend on the higher card to get Elite status or something you generally I don't think those cards are worth spending on okay that's that's good to know no I've got tons of high at points I don't think I'm ever going to pay for a hotel again yeah so then I would just put everything in your Capital One X at this point I mean that's 2x on everything those points can be redeemed for pretty much anything and they also do have some really interesting Transfer Partners as well okay but you know I'm listening to this podcast right and and I'm here I'm hearing Brian the Points Guy come on and tell me all this but it there's no world where someone listening to this podcast is going to open up the MX gold and the Chase Sapphire reserve and the Venture x one as result this podcast and spend the $1,000 or whatever in fees on that so so which one is the first move that I should make so to your point whenever you get a new credit card you need to spend a certain amount within a certain time period like 3 to 6,000 within 3 to four months usually so I would never recommend someone biting off more than they can chew um that being said I have a case I mean I think most points experts having those three credit cards even though the annual fees uh will be over $1,000 like you're easily getting recouping that back anyone who travels and knows how to use the the the travel credit you're easily recouping that back um you could get all three in one day if you do spend a lot and and could do that it's not going to and in fact many people in the industry experts will get three credit cards in one day there's actually you get higher approval rates because the banks may not see the other you know approval or you know the application um but I think if you spend on traveling or if you spend on dining and groceries I think like most families do like having an MX gold is a no-brainer if you have a friend who has one any of these credit cards you could ask them to refer you they'll get like 30,000 points too which is always nice especially if you have a spouse that's what people you know if your married couples need to know too you could refer each other and each get the signup bonus that's what we call two-player mode is you get your spouse involved too and then you're all of a sudden you're you're referring each other for credit cards you're each maximizing that's when it gets really compelling and you can start ricking in the points every year some of our our listeners come on and they spend remarkably little money they live in a lowcost living area and I'm talking like $2,000 $3,000 a month in household expenses and they they don't travel that frequently um you know maybe maybe a trip or two you know a year kind of deal at that level of spending does the math change would you would you then tell people to shy away from all three of those credit cards if you're not going to travel you just want to get a cash back credit card 2% back on your all your spend every year if you're paying rent you have to get a built credit card the billt credit card also offers double on travel 3x on dining so I would say to someone who wants one credit card no annual fee and who pays rent and travels and dines the built is a no-brainer no questions asked there's literally not a if you're if you're paying rent today and you're not getting free super valuable points once again back you're you're throwing money in the trash can because and not only that built records your rent payment on the credit rail so you actually get your credit increases it it it shows your credit respons ibility as long as you pay it off in full every month so um yeah the built for like low Spenders or who have rent and you know might eat out I think the buillt card's the absolute winner there okay so so you you would literally suggest though for most people go out there and today if you're just getting started go get the MX gold the Chase Sapphire reserve and the Capital One Venture X and pay in the ballpark a little an excess of $1,000 in fees if not all at once over the next couple of months presuming you can actually hit the minimum spend limits on those and you will see the reward and if you're if you use them for the appropriate categories of spend that they give the maximum Point benefits in you'll recoup that ,000 in fees easily and more every year absolutely each card has a bunch of different and then the signup bonuses alone will pay for the card you know let's you know Capital One Venture X I believe is $3.95 you're getting $300 a year uh so really it's a $95 a year card and you're going to get 60 I don't know the signup bonus off top of my head let's say it's 60,000 which is low for that card you know that's $600 right there so if you're paying $95 a year that's six years of the annual fee just paid for just by the first signup bonus alone you know what I mean like the the economics are not hard to get in your advantage because you're getting the huge signup bonus and then every year you're getting the category bonuses cuz using these cards for the 2x 3x 4X 5x categories which helps you sustain the points coming in beyond that sign up bonus I saw a post from my friend Jenny Roselle who's an estate attorney just the other day and she said don't forget about your loyalty points and rewards in your estate plan is that a thing absolutely and in my book I I interviewed an attorney so also in divorce points will be split up by the court it is communal property it's it's something that people do not realize even though you're not taxed on points and miles and it's very tough to put EV valuation um they clearly have value and you know you should account for them when you pass unfortunately I see this all the time people do not I I recommend everyone put your frequent flyer passwords in your estate so that your next of kin can come in and redeem those points and they don't have to go through all the paperwork of trying to beg the airline to transfer them to you many Airline and hotel programs will expire your points when when you expire because you technically don't own them but if you're if your next of kin have your information and can log into your accounts they can redeem the points for tickets for themselves or hotels so yeah it's something most people don't think about but it is good to always have that in your estate so that because some people have millions of points and they go they their their NEX of King can't get access and you know most programs will say sorry they might make an exception if you send in tons and tons and tons of paperwork but who wants to do that when dealing with someone's passing right so you just don't tell the airline and you just keep using the points until they're all gone exactly because you're allowed to do that I'm allowed to book points for whoever I want so my next of Kim would come in and just log into my accounts and just book tickets for themselves run them down to zero call it a day instead of losing the thousands in value because you forgot to put your password in your estate okay my last question is let's say I've got these four cards and I don't know which one is the best for which type of purchase how do I go in and find out what is the best like which card gives me the most on uh groceries or whatever I mean at the point Sky we have you know a huge editorial team so if you want to look for the the best credit card for gas groceries dieing Etc I would just say Google it or just put in the points guy at the end our team of experts we we we narrow this down in my book I actually have a list of all the top categories and the top credit cards um and if you have a credit card and you're like I wonder what card this this earns me I everyone today go through your wallet look at your credit card just Google earning uh Chase Freedom unlimited and it'll take you probably to a point skyp post we usually rank higher than the banks and just make sure you then use that card for that for that purchase some credit cards have rotating categories I find them annoying but it can be more value you know staying on top sometimes you have to activate them but most credit cards if there's a bonus category you just need to make sure you use it at that Merchant you automatically will get the extra points okay and Brian you have mentioned how to win a travel a couple of times tell us about this book so this is for anyone who's like this is so confusing um you know how to win a travel is my guide to helping people who want to just be better Travelers I mean I see all day in the airports people melting down they don't know the rules and so often you need to understand how travel Works to get what you want I see people screaming at the agents at the airport and I'm like you're doing it all wrong cuz if you were nice to that person and knew what to ask for you're going home tonight but because you don't understand how the system works you're screaming at this poor employee who wants you out of here so the book it's 15 chapters of how to budget you know if you're 22 years old and you want to start traveling but you know on social media nowadays everything is take the trip do this but how do you actually set yourself up where do you go you know how do you stay safe I interviewed a lot of really interesting people um so there's the three chapters are earning points redeeming points and perks but I also like highlight jet lag how to beat jet lag which I I learned a ton about circadian science while writing the book so even if you're an expert traveler an expert points person this book is a great gift for anyone who wants to be a traveler or is a frequent traveler and also fear of flying I'm always shocked how many people have a fear of flying and I dove deep into that interviewed whoopy Goldberg who used to not be able to even get on planes now she f across the Atlantic by yourself so how to come with that basically just how to how to become a better traveler so you wrote this book for me essentially thank you for you and so that I can enjoy dinner parties again because I am always the most popular dinner party guest and I just need to give my voice a break so I'm just going to carry this book around with me wherever I go and say read for read for yourself awesome well Brian I really appreciate your time today this was a lot of fun I learned a ton and it apparently I now have a bunch of credit cards to go open up before I learned a ton too you Bri made me 1,500 bucks just on this conversation your first two minutes so I really appreciate thank you thank you guys for having me yeah thank you Brian and we will talk to you soon all right that was the Points Guy and Scott I have to tell you I learned so much I was really looking forward to this interview the entire time that it was on the calendar I kept waiting for the day we got to talk to him because I had so many questions I really feel like I got some good answers he gave some really great credit card uh suggestions that like all encompassing credit cards like the capital 1 Venture X America American Express gold Chase Sapphire Reserve I think those are great starters for people who like me just don't have the mental bandwidth to hang on to this but if you're not like me Brian's got a new book where you can dive deep into all of this stuff and I'm so excited I had such a great time talking to him how about you Scott look you know there's there's that like framework of you know you got to spend your time on you know you start out spending time on a $10 an hour activity in high school you try to get to $25 or $100 activity and then as an entrepreneur you try to find a, or $500 activity well this is I I think that if I spend five hours actually doing this stuff now that we've interviewed all of the biggest names in the point space and I've never followed their advice other than getting a Chas Sapphire Preferred Card of I finally now after talking to the points guy and he just told me exactly how to make $1,500 uh in incremental value on my points like if I don't do that what am I doing here like this is this is a super valuable thing and I think that for folks who have ignored this for a long time if you're like me at all you know spending four or five hours going down the rabbit hole setting the system up and then actually spending the points you accumulated probably has fiveish plus thousand dolls maybe per year in benefit for you so I it's something I've been missing I have been missing it too um I've been AC crewing them at a not nearly High rate as you have uh but now I'm excited to start acre them even more I'm not kidding Scott we're buying a h we we're building a house and the Builder said that we could pay for all of the materials up front instead of them doing it and I'm like yes please mine include my rental properties and include the signing bonuses I got for these things years ago and I did a couple of the travel hacks and forgot about it I'm sure that's the case for a lot of people in the community you know you just lose track of it after a couple years and the fourth credit card you sign up after you get going down the rabbit hole but I think it's just like sustaining that and using it and putting a few hours of work is thousands of dollars in value um if you're actually going to put it in so that's that's my big takeway and I'm very grateful for the free consultation I got from uh the Points Guy on my own personal situation that was great yeah that was awesome I am so excited for his book all right Scott should we get out of here let's do it all right that wraps up this excellent travel episode of the Bigger Pockets money podcast he is the Scott trench and I am Indy Jensen saying take care Little Bear

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